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Hosts Stacey Harris and John Sumser discuss important news and topics in recruiting and HR technology. Listen live every Thursday or catch up on full episodes with transcriptions here.

HR Tech Weekly

Episode: 224
Air Date: July 3, 2019




Important: Our transcripts at HRExaminer are AI-powered (and fairly accurate) but there are still instances where the robots get confused and make errors. Please expect some inaccuracies as you read through the text of this conversation. Thank you for your understanding.

John Sumser
Stacey Harris


00:00:14:18 – 00:00:24:14
Good morning and welcome to HR Tech Weekly, One Step Closer with Stacey Harris and John Sumser. Hi Stacey you’re back in North Carolina just in time for it to be hot and miserable.

00:00:25:01 – 00:00:50:15
I am I am. We are definitely hitting our hot and muggy season but that’s okay. I’ll take it. I am lucky enough to live in an area that get lots of trees and so it’s fairly well shaded. And I got air conditioning and you can’t complain. I had more than somebody will have in this area so I will take it. The sunshine is beautiful and your home. You guys are enjoying your nice wonderful calm California weather for the moment right. No not rainy season not hot days in the middle area right now.

00:00:50:16 – 00:00:59:23
Oh it was the hottest June on record. It’s hot. It’s not. I thought they had finally broke them but it’s hot you go.

00:00:59:29 – 00:01:11:12
It’s been near 90 a couple of times. And so the sweltering Puerto Rico but it’s summertime stuff. It was summertime.

00:01:11:21 – 00:01:32:08
I don’t know a lot of people when when you talk about that kind of weather they don’t realize that a lot of homes in California don’t have air conditioning. Just like they don’t have they have heating but the light heat. Right. So when it’s hot here we’ve put their conditioning on everybody’s got air conditioning even the smallest houses but not very many houses in California. Except for on the higher end have air conditioning correct.

00:01:32:09 – 00:01:54:09
Yeah. Yeah well you know before global warming you didn’t really need air conditioning. And now that the weather is consistently many degrees hotter it turns out that it’s only a little bit of difference in the heat between we a movie you know. Excellent. So the older the older homes just don’t have a.

00:01:54:20 – 00:02:05:08
That’s one thing that people would like well it’s not nearly as hot as the stuff I’m like yes but every house in the south has dealt with air conditioning. Yeah I have had it for many years. Yeah that’s right.

00:02:05:17 – 00:02:09:17
Well what do you do in if we get the holiday week here in the States.

00:02:09:17 – 00:02:22:02
We’ve got the Fourth of July which is why we’re doing our special Wednesday fashion but are you staying home and enjoying Fourth of July in your neighborhood or will you be traveling like the rest of the world it seems like everybody is talking about traveling this year.

00:02:22:03 – 00:03:05:14
I’m staying home. I just finished yesterday. I have been doing demos for the report of the state of a I for almost one hundred and twenty days. And you know those like with travel in there and a lot of talking to lots of interesting people along the way but it is about one hundred ten for on demos to this yesterday. So part of what I’m doing is just taking a big deep breath before I start. There are some really interesting things happening in the spectrum that runs from people analytics to intelligent tools you know all of all about the various ways you could quantify it.

00:03:05:16 – 00:03:15:28
Those are the type of beta. So I’m excited to get writing and I am particularly excited to be out of the deep research phase.

00:03:16:05 – 00:03:36:07
You know people all the time. Oh it must be stuff that must come to so many interesting things like it is extremely fun to listen to interesting things until they start blurring together and everyone sounds alike and then you want to say wait a minute what which what was the big difference that you had. You know that’s the hard part is really finding the different times when so many vendors do the same thing. Is that right.

00:03:36:23 – 00:04:16:26
Well you know I’m having kind of a different experience. There are there are large ish categories of people doing similar things but my days my days in the research process with my yesterday. Yesterday I talked to IBM about their integration of Watson and assessment. I talked to a little company in Maryland that is reaping social media data to do predictions of behavior for potential employees which is like super creepy.

00:04:16:27 – 00:04:54:08
I talked to the smartest person I knew about natural language processing and how you could extract and utilize employee sentiment raw tax data. And the fact that you can’t really generalize that stuff every question is a discrete research project embellishment. I spent a long time talking to the folks at Shaker International who are some of my favorite thinkers about how intelligent tools progressed to this thing. So the really big problem was leaping from diverse topics to the worst topic without breaking the.

00:04:54:11 – 00:05:18:03
And that’s fun until your brain explodes just going to say that the other opposite end of that term right. Yeah it’s either oh no more of this or a lot of contradictory things. And I like the part where there’s a lot of contradictory theories because I think that more accurately represents what’s going on in nature.

00:05:18:03 – 00:05:53:22
Technology you know the idea that I was talking with a senior H.R. person this morning about the difficulty that H.R. technology companies really have because customers are hungry for easy solutions. And the reality of H.R. is this complex and there are easy solutions but if you go to it if you go to a customer who wants to these are solution you say well I know you want a car and I have the special really good car.

00:05:53:23 – 00:06:19:08
It’ll get you there slower than walking but you’ll make better decisions along the way. They don’t even talk to you twice you must you must claim to save money and reduce costs to make things easier because quality is rarely a concern of the sort that makes it a very difficult place to so interesting solutions things.

00:06:19:17 – 00:07:06:17
I think you are right on the nose. I had a similar conversation start with an organization who was talking about how their product was pledged better quality same thing and maybe even cost a little bit less than some of the bigger guys but easier to use. But it didn’t actually feel like it was saving time and the complex challenges this particular organization was dealing with learning function the complex challenges that face between learning and the challenge match how well how you tie those together and it doesn’t do anything to make their lives easier it just adds a little bit of extra benefit but that extra benefit isn’t enough to get rid of a whole fleet of things and say you really got to do something that adds not so much a return on investment but definite value to other places that they’re working on.

00:07:07:04 – 00:07:43:10
You know what. It’s a crazy thing because because H.R. is a cost server. So if you just look at returns on investment inside of the H.R. department you assume that you can do is cut costs. Yeah that’s the only way you can get a return on investment inside the router because it’s a customer. So the smart people are trying to figure out how to relate their products to sales revenue and productivity outside of the H.R. department because the the budgets are greater if you could actually make a meaningful impact.

00:07:43:10 – 00:08:14:24
Making a hour run faster often means making bad decisions and more of a hurry. And it’s hard to to hang in there with the argument that that’s worth spending money on. It’s just like the recruiting problem is a particularly pernicious one where the results of recruiting are 50 percent failure rate and so all of the recruiting buyers want to do that faster. We want to make that same level of mistakes in half the time.

00:08:15:03 – 00:08:18:19
You know that because at least we get it figured out sooner right.

00:08:19:25 – 00:08:48:21
Well love over too. The problem is the feedback loop in recruiting is 18 months long. You don’t know that you’ve made a mistake though somebody is fully on board and must have a year or so of performance in place and by the time that’s happened you’re halfway through the manager’s career and the recruiters come and gone so there’s nobody to give the feedback to what get. And there’s no method for collecting it and that that’s a very very difficult problem to solve from a technical perspective.

00:08:49:16 – 00:09:21:08
Well and that’s you know I think that’s the thing that that will be interesting to see is can we. And instead of the the entire technology world ad quality along with me then the answer’s no no right now I think you know this is a company I’m having a lot of organization but the answer is can we if we keep doing it and getting instantaneous feedback in some way because of what you’re right. That process the feedback give 18 months right now but if you put artificial intelligence on the other end of the process will it become faster too.

00:09:21:09 – 00:09:25:15
I think that’s the question that I don’t know that we have an answer to it right.

00:09:26:12 – 00:09:59:18
I haven’t seen a single artificial intelligence or intelligence tools or people analytics project whose objective is accelerating the time productivity for new employees. Yeah right now that’s that’s a place where you could see a return on investment in operations if you could cut the if you’re a salesperson in a charter. It takes nine months to get product on average. If you could find a way it’s technology that could reduce that by half.

00:09:59:18 – 00:10:35:12
There is a real return on investment there you have workforce productivity tools supposedly. It would be some kind of a productivity tool or some kind of an onboarding tool that had as its goal measurable improvement in productivity over time. Right. So this is the thing that’s always missing in the learning and development space the actual applicability of learning and development to the operations of the company. Yes. Elon these people just don’t know how to do that and that’s all the operations people want.

00:10:35:14 – 00:10:56:27
Show me that sending somebody to this course or having this training thing on their desktop makes them do the work more productive. There is an actual return on investment in the work and for the most part H.R. learning people show that they can do a job and learning stuff faster not organizational.

00:10:57:24 – 00:11:28:20
Well there might be some pushback. That was interesting I was reading the article today about the head designer over at Apple leaving and getting the company. Yeah exactly yeah. And the initial thing was I’m starting my own companies this time right. The trickling article seem to be he’s not very happy with Tim Cook’s focused on operations and productivity. So on the other hand it does that for the creative side of the world for this guy. But it takes me one time to get up to speed and maybe that time is important because it gives you other things.

00:11:28:22 – 00:11:34:13
They also haven’t figured that out yet either. So speeding things up could be a challenge in some of these areas right.

00:11:34:15 – 00:12:05:21
That’s right. That’s exactly right. I think I see a place where a chance could get taken to task in the fairly near future because we’re able to measure things as we move as an industry without really defining things very well. So you look at the well so the first thing the first story today is about an M.I.T. Sloan Management Review glass door study of culture in American companies.

00:12:05:27 – 00:12:46:15
They took about the there’s no valuation of a million Glassdoor reviews to come up with a cultural analysis for a huge number. So they measure culture or nine variables. And the problem is this is an employee sentiment analysis of employee sentiment. There’s a measure of culture and employee sentiment measures employee sentiment employee sentiment changes with the with the fate of the company. So when it’s making its sales numbers and growing employee sentiment is often very very positive when it’s not making its numbers and shrinking employee serving is often very very negative.

00:12:46:17 – 00:13:12:24
And that’s great. It’s important to know that it’s like having a good sense of the weather but confusing the weather in Raleigh North Carolina with Raleigh North Carolina is what they’re doing with this study. And it’s a mistake that a lot of people who are no better in professional consulting in H.R. make up with time. They think that engagement is something rather than being a symptom of something. Yeah right.

00:13:13:08 – 00:13:22:02
And so I’m personal agent but I’m not really talking about what is it that I do in my organization that impacts that engagement I’m just talking about the idea of improving engagement right.

00:13:22:10 – 00:13:54:06
Yeah. So how does it really work. Glassdoor does is great. What he does is great. What the Sloan Management Review does is great and what my team does is great. And when you put those four ingredients together you get this yuck it is that is a very pretty web site that claims to measure all sorts of things that it doesn’t measure at all with no oversight involved in the process. So that’s the increasingly a problem as a job becomes more of a science.

00:13:54:06 – 00:14:03:20
The oversight of the science isn’t happening. Peer review is hard questions are really being asked So are you with me.

00:14:03:21 – 00:14:36:17
Well you know it’s a little funny I was listening the other day to a podcast talking about sort of the some of the so many amazing sort of breakthroughs of our time right. Medically and penicillin being one of those amazing breakthroughs and how it came about with bunch of 19 it which I didn’t like. We did have some some 1941 but that it shows my how far back I think about things and the discovery of it was basically this sort of idea that someone had a petri dish that had mold growing on it accidentally and that what looked and looking and things that had caused bacteria to go away.

00:14:36:22 – 00:15:11:07
But the amount of sort of testing that that went through and the amount of rigor that that went through and the fact that it sat for 10 years before anybody did anything with it. Right. Because it got buried under reviews and journals and we just we’re not doing any of that kind of testing and revealing right now. We’re just throwing these things out into social scape because it’s harder to quantify something like social and personal impact versus Health Care Impact rain well I’m not sure that it’s hard to quantify but that the pace doesn’t match the technology.

00:15:11:10 – 00:15:43:26
So we’ve taken research in the last five years we have taken research into H.R. things almost entirely out of the hands of academic institutions and put it in small startups that are in charge of doing research and producing revenue. And so so the need to produce revenue heavily biases the results that they’re able to accomplish and so they go to market sooner with things that aren’t quite all the way worked out with a It’s called Lean Startup methodology.

00:15:43:26 – 00:15:51:11
Right and the idea is you get a product that’s almost good enough and then you let your customer tell you what’s wrong with it when it doesn’t work. I

00:15:51:11 – 00:15:54:28
I don’t like that idea you know.

00:15:54:29 – 00:16:23:27
OK so that’s the thing. But that’s what we’re seeing a lot of. And it’s what happens is you generalize the results because it’s not in anybody’s interest to share them. That’s one of the things I’m excited about with the folks I talked to the Chamber of investors they are actively interested in open sourcing both code and discoveries in a two hour technology. That’s a very interesting move that merits a lot of it.

00:16:24:05 – 00:16:47:17
Well you know open sourcing now there has been a lot of conversation I think in the news about openness asking various programs and tools that both Google and Facebook are doing a line up and passing right to get there. I their version of whatever they are doing. Standardized is the first thing a way to get things sort of so that everybody is using and then it becomes a standard or is it truly going to bring about more collaboration.

00:16:48:05 – 00:17:29:21
I think both of those things are true. I’m sure both of those things are true. Google Google Amazon and Microsoft and Oracle to a lesser extent all want to be providers of cloud software. Right. And so it’s in their interest to get their clients up to speed as fast as possible with cloud was with software that uses a lot of processing and a lot of storage. And so it’s in their interest to to deliver those kinds of products so that their customers use them so that they consume the basic thing that these companies are selling which is processing time and storage.

00:17:29:27 – 00:18:15:13
There’s another kind of open source which is more like the stuff that comes out a pack of bugs. So you pick a problem and then you have. I think I think the sort of shakeup with shakers assistance ran a hackathon that produced code to solve a classification problem taking text and turning it in to big five personality assessment characteristics. And they have 100 companies participate with a thousand different models and they tested all of these models and they found the ones that work and create the library that anybody can go use to incorporate that particular bit of function all of the into their solution.

00:18:15:13 – 00:18:21:18
Right. And so that’s rightly different than. The stuff that Google and Amazon are doing.

00:18:21:24 – 00:18:51:24
That’s a good point. Good point. Although I would push back against them and I like that idea. But I would really like to see those algorithms or the crib checked against the non-technical version of it. Right. For a very long time to see if those things come out the same that’s the same type of record you would see in any kind of scientific process. And if it’s open source I am off and will that be done. Now there’s that sort of constant conversation about you know if we open testing everybody means that people who use it use it understanding I’m not getting fully fleshed out yet.

00:18:52:13 – 00:19:24:27
Well so this is actually a great question because what that boils down to in the intelligence tools world is the characteristics of the trading day. Right. So for for a hackathon with intelligent tools to work you need a problem to solve and you need a service training data. And that’s the only way that you can tell whether or not the results of the hackathon make a difference. Everybody has to use the same training data and the training data is where you can do the validation stuff that you’re talking about.

00:19:24:29 – 00:20:04:13
And I believe I don’t know for sure but I believe that’s part of the equation is that the science is included in the foundations of the races. That produces standard things you know. But what’s interesting is because because I don’t believe that Shaker is venture backed they can take the point of view that they’re intelligent tools are not the proprietary difference and so they can they can say that that all we have is a head start in time and we’re happy to share whatever we discover because whatever we discover we discover first.

00:20:04:15 – 00:20:26:28
And if you use it you’re following us and we want to be the market leader. Right. And that’s a different point of view than a venture backed company that’s trying to accumulate intellectual property so that if the overall venture doesn’t succeed there’s an asset we’re selling as the end of the investment it.

00:20:27:08 – 00:20:59:19
I mean we really got a few minutes. But in terms of leading into some of the funding things that we have this week I mean is that the this week we saw stepson acquiring the maturity of the US technology provider Apple. Apple forecast has been in that acquisition space for some time that they they acquired 85 percent of the U.S. American company 70 million dollars. Is that those kind of acquisitions venture capital those other things. Are they also looking for things that would be more IP proprietary or is it just about aggregating customers in some cases to come back.

00:21:00:07 – 00:21:36:14
You know I don’t know enough about the the Abacus acquisition that cast is essentially programmatic advertising for recruiting. So it automates the process of figuring out which dashboard to use. And I’m sure there is is a combination of both things. There’s there is coherent technology. That’s a very very difficult problem to solve in a sustained way. And the customer list although I think half caste is America in step stone is very general appeared German.

00:21:36:23 – 00:21:47:09
And so maybe this is step stone has always had ambition about the American market and maybe this is a move to expand the market. I don’t know

00:21:49:08 – 00:22:22:03
Well we and we’ve definitely seen this week. And it may be because of the holidays that the European investments were much more in the news than the U.S. investments. We saw companies like fellow app which is a process. I love the language the first software for managers. But it’s basically a performance management tool getting seed funding for six point five million dollars in. A Paris based eight year tech company called clever connect to getting 5.5 million dollars. Supposedly to reduce unemployment in Europe. I’m not exactly sure how it does that but it’s supposed to be sort of a job mentoring

00:22:22:12 – 00:22:36:13
Kind of a tool and a London based H.R. platform called clear review which is a cloud based performance development tool that’s got two point nine million all European based or a U.K. based this week. Do you think it’s just because the holidays and things are quiet here in the U.S. or

00:22:38:01 – 00:23:13:03
It’s probably that it’s also that you know the the announcement season runs from the first of March to the 15th to it just it just turns into a trickle after that and that may have as much to do with the fiscal year of the venture. And so they need to get all they need to get all of their investing for a certain round done by the first of July. And I don’t know I can’t explain the seasonality but this definitely season it definitely.

00:23:13:03 – 00:23:33:19
Oh yeah. But like you said you know these companies that are venture back whether they’re here in the States or in Europe they are all with the expectation they will get some IP out of these and not just a company. And so crowdsourcing is probably not their top priority or open sharing of an IP at some point in the process right.

00:23:33:28 – 00:23:44:27
Yeah I like this one that has a guy examining the way you walk to to determine your mood that you would like that line.

00:23:45:09 – 00:23:50:16
That’s what I think does for you. Dan I was I’m reading this and I’m going Well that’s that’s

00:23:52:24 – 00:23:59:16
yeah used by a major group right now but this is this is a bit of research that’s being done actually here.

00:23:59:18 – 00:24:21:28
University of Chapel Hill and the University of Maryland. They investigate the machine learning method that can identify a person’s perceived emotion valance which is negative or positive and arousal. They call it calmer energetic from their gait alone and the researchers claim this approach they believe is the first of its kind and it’s eighty point zero seven percent accuracy and preliminary experiment.

00:24:21:28 – 00:24:28:18
So so what does a lot of families again what never five times it gets it totally wrong.

00:24:29:05 – 00:24:59:14
Yeah. One out of five times you get it totally wrong and if you said that to them they go well it’s better than a human would do but they wouldn’t be able to show you what is human can do with the performance of resume in this thing. But you know that that’s something that examines motion is not going to be able to account for a bunion or polio. You know this is all things that make people walk in their unique way.

00:24:59:14 – 00:25:09:20
And the idea that there is some sort of generalizable truth to be had from posture. That’s a very Victorian point of view.

00:25:10:15 – 00:25:43:11
It’s a little scary. But the fact that it made it into some of the higher and tech news articles that I tend to read on on a weekly basis like oh wow this is getting creepier by the minute. And then right after that I had one where I was predicting college students stressed from phone sensors and questionnaire data and a questionnaire data. But then the phone sensors were obviously things like how often they were walking how busy they were. Their heartbeat rate all those things that your phone can supposedly get off of you know sensor readings.

00:25:43:13 – 00:26:15:04
And I think we’re we’re heading more and more into this space where the world around us is monitoring us at every angle. And what people make of that data is you know we’re talking about things where we know people are doing pre interview exams or where we know that someone’s watching what we’re doing and performance management tools are watching what we’re doing online and Arlington profiles when they’re giving it. But when you’re walking or when you’re just sitting there and your phone monitoring them making decisions based off of that stuff that gets even scarier doesn’t it.

00:26:16:12 – 00:26:54:12
You can’t be afraid of this. You can’t you can’t be afraid of this. It’s really a function of provide money. There were no I don’t know maybe a hundred million people on the planet when the idea of privacy started to be meaningful. You know you could have privacy when the only form of government was monarchy or tribal leadership privacy wasn’t a thing because the king always had the right to do what they really wanted to do. It wasn’t until the Magna Carta that you could start to think about privacy so it’s under a thousand year old one hundred thousand years of history.

00:26:54:16 – 00:27:32:15
And the ideas were generally conceived in a time where there was a lot of room so you could have a lot of privacy. And the other 7 billion people going to nine or ten before her population starts shrinking again in 30 years. And in that crowding we learn all sorts of things about people and I think technology is just a symptom of that. It’s just a symptom of the fact that things are crowded and yes everything’s going to be monitored every twitch of your eye live is going to be monitored and assessed and somebody is going to make a prediction about it and we’re going to have to wait to that.

00:27:32:22 – 00:27:57:27
It’s not like it’s it’s not much it’s something we can inhibit somehow we missed all the electricity goes away and we’re headed down this road towards measurement because processing capability is continuing to explode. Storage can do it cheaper and the companies that want to sell processing and storage are giving away tools that make it possible to measure everything.

00:27:58:08 – 00:28:28:18
And I think you’re ear. No. Although I like to be offered a tool to create the drama by thing isn’t that scary you think you’re you’re right on that. You know what I always tell people to put your head in the sand do you. You have to be aware that this is going to happen and you have to understand the technology if you want to keep some sense of you afraid I might just have a good conversation to have on the eve of the Fourth of July here in the United States. It’s a matter of understanding the technology not so much being afraid of it that’s going to be the value of the pension I think. Yeah. Great conversation.

00:28:29:00 – 00:29:09:25
Yeah well. Well I think we got most of the things on your list covered here too. So it was a great conversation we didn’t talk about employer background checks and I should tell you very quickly about a company that I talked to yesterday who scans your social media exhaust and categorizes what’s discovered in your social media exhaust in 10 risk categories and so they predict how likely you are to be an embezzler or how likely you are to be a sexual harasser or how likely you are to lie or how likely you are to a whole host of things as part of the background checking process.

00:29:09:26 – 00:29:40:12
Wow. Well that would be interesting. This particular this is this was picked up by the major news writers this last couple of weeks and I had heard about a couple of things that have been mentioning here but this is the large amount of money that’s been won in court cases over the last five to six years because here at least in the United States background checks were done illegally against the Fair Credit Act law which requires that if you do a background check there has to be a reason for doing background checks for that position. And if you do it you have to get consent from the first thing and you’re doing it from.

00:29:40:15 – 00:30:03:01
And then you have to make sure that they get the results of that background check if it negatively impact their ability to have the position which just doesn’t happen. Most of the time and organizations ranging from Amazon Target Uber and Wells Fargo where all food and money was won from them of cash and what you just said to that picture. There’s got to be some serious legal things that go along with that.

00:30:03:18 – 00:30:21:26
Oh well but so it’s a really good long topic. Here’s the problem. So if I’m running a background check on you right now and I’m not going to talk to you next week because of what I find in the background check. How would you know. Yeah because I’m legally required to tell you. So what if I don’t.

00:30:23:13 – 00:30:56:00
And that’s the problem is that you can’t be sure that you know whether you’re being surveilled in this way and there’s sort of a nod and a wink thing that the company that I talked to yesterday has big CRB Disclosures all over the Web site but what they’re really doing is pushing the liability onto the employer that they don’t insure that the employer does everything. They would say that that’s not their job. Their job is to collect information and deliver it. And it’s the employer’s job to obey the law.

00:30:56:19 – 00:30:59:06
And you know what. That’s probably right.

00:30:59:08 – 00:31:12:11
The employer is liable not that not the company that collects the information and I think there are some employers who probably feel the risk is worth and I guess I only know to get some insight into who they’re hiring. I don’t know yet.

00:31:12:12 – 00:31:17:11
That would be a conversation maybe if someone has a little more H.R. legal and law background and maybe your partner

00:31:19:06 – 00:31:43:15
knows that people like you. We know a few that are very good at some point. This will be a good conversation with both of them. But please. I mean maybe we’ll have live on for a special argument Ed.. Yeah. What you can and can’t do or what legally or correctly right both of which are not the same thing. Right.

00:31:43:16 – 00:31:44:26
Right. Exactly.

00:31:45:16 – 00:31:51:17
Well great conversation. It’s nice to have you back in the country. We’ll do this again next week.

00:31:51:19 – 00:31:53:15
Definitely. Looking forward to it. Thanks John. Bye.

00:32:19:13 – 00:32:19:16

Alrighty, and thanks everybody for listening in, you’ve been listening to HR Tech Weekly, One Step Closer with Stacey Harris and John Sumser.

See you next week. Here come those Irish guys!


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