HRExaminer Radio

HRExaminer Radio is a weekly show devoted to Recruiting and Recruiting Technology airing live on Friday’s at 11AM Pacific

HRExaminer Radio

Guest: Jason Averbook, CEO, Marcus Buckingham Company
Episode: 102
Air Date: July 10, 2015


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Jason Averbook is recognized as one of the top thought leaders in the space of HR, workforce and enterprise technology.

Jason brings with him over 20 years of invaluable experience helping organizations resolve common business problems through the use of innovative solutions. As one CEO has said about Jason, “He just gets it and can put it into language that we get.”

Jason has been a contributor to Inc., Businessweek, Fortune, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, CIO Magazine, HR Executive Online, Talent Management Magazine, NPR, SHRM, IHRIM and other well-known publications. He was named as one of the World’s 10 Most Powerful HR Technology Experts by HR Executive Magazine.


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Begin transcript

John Sumser:            Good morning and welcome to HR Examiner Radio. I’m your host, John Sumser. We’re coming to you today from beautiful downtown Occidental, California. You know, I keep telling you that this is where innovation got its start, in the great state of California. It’s where Leland Stanford built his laboratory for doing railroad engineering as he took the railroad out of the straightaways and up to the mountains, to the top of northern California. It’s an amazing place to live. A little village of eleven-hundred people.

Anyhow, the sun’s out, the roses are in bloom and today we get to talk with Jason Averbook, who is the CEO of The Marcus Buckingham Company. You may remember that we talked to him just a little bit ago. Jason is one of these guys who just leaves you gasping for air when you spend time talking with him. He’s well known around the HR tech industry as one of the most thoughtful players in the space. These days, at Marcus Buckingham, he’s a running a company that’s shifting the way that we think about and execute performance management. How are you Jason?

Jason Averbook:       Hey, great to be back. Thank you for having me. I see it’s 59 degrees and cloudy there, looking up the weather as you were talking about it. I didn’t know exactly where you were, so 59 and a little overcast, with a high of 69. I can’t imagine better weather.

John Sumser:            Oh it’s perfect. If you look at the map, we’re five miles inland from the ocean and we’re just the other side of the first hill, so the fog stays on the other side of the hill most of the time. This morning it’s peeking over the top and keeping us pretty much cool.

Jason Averbook:       Well we have 93 coming. Ninety-three in Minneapolis. 93 and humid, so yeah. For those that love humidity this is the few weeks of the year where it’s nice and warm here.

John Sumser:            I spent a night in Minneapolis a couple of years ago when the wind chill was minus sixty.

Jason Averbook:       Yeah, we like a 150 degree ranges, John. We like to make sure that you don’t what to wear.

John Sumser:            It makes for sturdy people. Sometime, in another conversation, I will tell you about the fact that I am a registered member of the Minnesota Sons of the Territorial Pioneers.

Jason Averbook:       Nothing ever surprises my friend. Nothing.

John Sumser:            I have deep roots. My mother, if I have to go to Minneapolis, my mother still says, “Do you have to?” Because she was raised in St. Paul and when she was raised in St. Paul those people on the other side of the river were not acceptable to them and so she still gives me that. If I have to go to Minneapolis she tries not to talk to me for a couple of weeks lest she gets some of it on her.

Jason Averbook:       Well we’re much more friendly here now, so you don’t have to worry about that.

John Sumser:            Yeah, it’s a different world. We’ve already spent time talking about you, but I’m very interested in having you sort of fill us in on what it’s like to shift from a company of your own creation to taking on someone else’s vision and layering your stuff on it and then executing it against that. You seem to be doing an amazing job there. What’s that like?

Jason Averbook:       John, that’s a great question. You know what; it’s really not that much of a shift. I know this sounds very, very idealistic, but I don’t really do a lot of … I mean I worked for an industry that I’m trying to change more than I work for myself or work for anyone else, so if you think about that, I mean, really what I’m trying to do is I’m trying … You know when I was at PeopleSoft I was trying to develop products that changed an industry. When I started Knowledge Infusion I tried to develop services to change an industry. As I went to Appirio I tried to continue that forward into how do we implement in a way that changes an industry.

Now I get the opportunity to develop both products and bundle them with services to truly change an industry, but have it tied completely to a major, major wave that’s going on, which is not looking backwards at your data, but looking real-time and forward at your data. I can’t say it’s much different than when I was doing my own thing. The only thing I’ll say is this is a much more lofty goal and once we achieve it it’s going to be a much bigger payoff at the end for the whole industry.

John Sumser:            That’s really interesting. Talk to me a little bit about the idea that we should be looking at now or forward rather than looking over our shoulders. How do you do that?

Jason Averbook:       Well, I mean, you know, one of those things that, and a lot of this is … I mean I think you know the way that I speak, a lot of it’s just, to me it’s common sense and sometimes it comes across as duh and sometimes I don’t come across as well-spoken as I maybe should. For me, like everything we do today we learn about in real-time. We don’t measure anything in the rest world on a once a year type basis; whether it be performance, whether it be engagement, whether it be how the stock market’s doing, whether it be how many steps I took.

I mean everything we’re doing we have a concept of measure of now. Except we have these terribly old, broken HR processes that have been tied to some sort of compliance that we’re doing once a year still. We’re not even doing them in correlation with each other. We’re measuring engagement in one silo, we’re measuring performance of people as an HR process, not as a business process or business process in another silo, and we’re not even thinking about how they intersect. Nowhere are we doing it in any kind of a real-time way that allows me to adjust. I mean any business today, if I only looked at my financials of my company once a year I’d be out of business.

If I only got my blood pressure checked once a year, as I got older, I’d be in trouble. I mean everything we’re doing now we’re doing it in real-time and to think that we have something as important as our most important asset, our people, but we’re only measuring them once a year, a), and, b), if the response from the community is, hey, Jason this is all a bunch of bull, because our leaders measure their people much more often, you know, my response is, great, but we have more young leaders in the world today than we’ve ever had before, that have never led.

Our job, I believe, our job as HR leaders and industry leaders, is to really say how do we help these new leaders think about performance and engagement in a way that’s tied to the way the rest of the world works today, and that’s everything were doing.

John Sumser:            Okay. When I, this will date me a little bit, but when I was taking my management classes in graduate school one of the ideas that came away with was that there’s no such thing as not having performance management. If you are in a workplace your performance is being assessed every single moment of the day and it may not be in the formal performance management system, but the truth is you and your boss know exactly what your boss thinks of your performance. Whether or not it’s documented is the question, rather than whether or not it’s actually being assessed.

Jason Averbook:       And John, that’s nirvana. I mean that’s nirvana and it’s truly nirvana from the standpoint of if I’m all sitting in the office and I happen to have a span of control of five or six people and I can talk to my people on daily basis or an hourly basis, I mean, yeah, you’re right. Everyone should know that. I mean what we’re doing at TMBC; we’re not doing anything different than what the best leaders do.

What we’re doing is we’re digitizing that into a way for organizations that have remote workers, which is most, for organizations that have teams that aren’t tied to org structure, that are most, and to organizations that truly believe, and the research shows that engagement drives performance, that the processes aren’t separated. If you take those three things, we’re just doing what the best leaders already do and we’re digitizing, like the rest of the world is doing with things like Uber.

Doing it in a way where we’re not just taking the workforce in org structure, like how traditional performance has done, who reports to who and that’s all I talk to, but how do my best teams work and then see how do I make sure it’s not a HR thing? It’s a team leader thing. The people that should get the data first are the team leaders, because, guess what, they’re the ones that can do something about it.

If HR gets the data, after doing an engagement survey, and eventually finally gets it to a team leader, it’s too late. It’s too late. What we’re trying to do is digitize and bring to light what the best team leaders already do so that it can be spread across an entire organization, no matter what kind of leaders you have on an ongoing basis.

John Sumser:            That’s a great vision, but if you get into the sort of nitty-gritty of that, most people who operate on teams have their homes in some sort of a functional organization, so the functional manager holds the paperwork, even though the work is done on the teams and that’s how that’s setup. The question is, how do you get those team managers to execute performance management on a real-time basis when there isn’t no flow that really allows that? In order to do what you’re talking about doing, you’d have to really change the organization.

Jason Averbook:       Yeah, I mean what’s really important, John, is that if we use performance management the way we’ve always used performance, the term, performance management, whereas we’re going to just simply measure someone’s performance, and it’s going to be one of those once a year processes or even five times a year processes, that’s not what that … I mean that’s fine, but that’s not what we’re talking about. That’s why this is so big and this is why this is so evangelical from the standpoint having to change things, because what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to help teams work better. We’re trying to help teams perform better.

These tools are designed for the teams first and then HR gets that data to be able to see how are the best teams performing, how do I build best teams, where are my best teams going? Not the other way around, not HR pushes these things out and then hopefully the people get a chance to fill it in. I always say that the best way to drive adoption of tools is embed them into the way people work. As you get a chance to use our tools, what you’ll see is all we’ve done is taken the way that people work and digitized it, so that people are going in and answering two questions. Do I feel like I leverage my strengths at work this week and do I feel like I did my best work? Those are the top two things that drive engagement.

By answering those questions weekly, which, by the way, takes twenty seconds on your mobile device, I have an amazing real-time pulse of where the company is. At the same time, three or four minutes later, at the same time, once a week, I’m saying here are the things I’m going to work on and it drives immediate alignment, immediate conversation and immediate interaction with their team leader. I’m not trying to change the way that people work. What I’m trying to do is provide the tools for people to not just be able to that work in a way that’s hey sometimes it’s this way, sometimes it’s this way, sometimes it’s the way, but in a more systematic way where I can truly measure the impact, the impact having great team leaders have on the business.

If HR can show that and they can tie that back into increased sales, increased revenue, whatever it is, then all of a sudden we’re really doing performance management for the 99.9 percent of the business who’s doing a great job, instead of for the 1 percent of the business of the business, who we might have to manage out. Most of the people who are doing performance management today is to A) manage people out and B) to justify a merit increase and that’s not performance management. That’s your old school performance management.

John Sumser:            I hear what you’re saying. I wonder a little bit about the execution, because the team leadership for project teams will report in a different fashion than the kinds of functional managers that HR usually interacts with, so I don’t-

Jason Averbook:       And that’s what’s really important, John, is that the tools are designed for the team leaders with providing data to HR. This is no longer big brother watching, HR watching what you’re doing. There are, I mean if we look at the organizations we’re talking to, whether they be organizations … For example, a new customer of ours, the Office of Personnel Management, the federal government, the Federal Executive Institute, they want to change the way that performance management is done for the government.

Now if you’re an elected official, that’s an act of Congress, truly. If you’re not an elected official, it’s very easy to do. The leadership function is saying we need to build better leaders in the federal government and this is the tools and the platform we’re going to use to do it. Another customer … I’m sorry, go ahead.

John Sumser:            No, that’s pretty exciting. That’s pretty exciting. Although OPM is probably not a great place to hang a reputation this week, they seem to be having some trouble keeping the data secure.

Jason Averbook:       Yeah, different issue. Different issue. It’s exciting to be able to be working with the governing body of country and helping them build better leaders.

John Sumser:            Yeah, no that’s pretty exciting and adding real-time, adhoc performance communication is a big a move. It’s a big move; that’s a particularly rigid environment where being able to justify the merit increase is actually a big deal, so that’s a cool project.

Jason Averbook:       Well what’s really interesting about the projects, not just that, but I mean other organizations that where working with, is that they are breaking the link between performance and pay. They are breaking the link. Now they still believe in paying for performance, but they don’t believe in saying based on your rating of a one to a five, here’s your increase. That’s not what they want. They’re looking at someone’s talents potential and saying based on the talent potential of this person, what should their increase be or what should their merits be? That’s a huge change that I think will help everyone over time.

John Sumser:            So I think you just described pay for potential, which I’m not sure sounds like a good idea to me, but I do remember a twenty year stretch in the beginning of my career where I thought being paid for potential was a really good idea.

Jason Averbook:       Yeah, well what’s really, really important, if you think about the concept, is what I want to do is I want to pay based on how my best leaders are leading. I want to pay based on how my best leaders are leading. Now if I’m a union, John, if I’m a union and I have to pay certain ways, I totally get that, but if you read anything on our website or read anything of the work that we’re doing, what we’re saying is basically all of your ratings, all of your ratings that you create today are bogus. They truly are.

I mean when you read that, people that rate other people are really rating themselves, more than they’re rating other people. If that’s how organizations … If that, if that is how organizations truly want to do their performance management going forward, have at it. Not the right company for me, because that’s the wrong way and at the end of the day those companies are going to lose.

John Sumser:            You said we want to align pay with the way that are best leaders are leading, or something like that. Align performance measurement with the way our best leaders are leading. How do you tell who the best leaders are? How do you tell who the best team leaders are?

Jason Averbook:       Okay, the way you tell who the best team leaders are is you look at, A), a combination of how are the people doing, so how engaged a are their people … Now this is going to get into a whole discussion on engagement, which I’m willing to do; and then, B), you look at the impact that engagement is having on a business, at a particular business. John, if I take a retail … We do work with a quick serve restaurant, and I’ll share this example. We do work with a quick serve restaurant, where if you look at the restaurant chain, the economic barometer of the different restaurants should be exactly the same. Should be exactly the same.

Based on the economics of that particular area, where those restaurants are, the restaurants should perform the same. Yet one is massively profitable and one is massively under profitable or unprofitable, excuse me. No why is that? Tell me. You tell me, why is that? If the economic conditions are exactly the same, and they have to buy all the same stuff, why is one restaurant profitable and one not profitable?

John Sumser:            Well it’ll be a function of the team leader, but that seems like a mistake in partial view of what constitutes a great team leader. Profitably could be achieved in a lot of ways and what you can’t see is whether that’s sustainable or not from a snapshot of profitability.

Jason Averbook:       What you want, John, is you want impact. I don’t care if the impact that you’re measuring is decreased turnover, if it’s profitability, if it’s more turnover, if it’s more people working better hours, if it’s healthier people. I don’t really care, but what I want is impact. What I want is impact and I can tell you that in today’s performance systems they don’t generate impact.

John Sumser:            Oh, you won’t get any argument about me; I’m just trying to think about the reality of what you’re doing rather than the comparison to the old. I wonder if an untethered system, like you’re saying, that is focused on impact, in a world where management beliefs about what constitutes great business shift not quite as fast as the front page of the Wall Street Journal, but the sort of slavish following of management trends is pretty intense and associated with the economic cycle then what you get is a definition of what’s the best team leadership that varies pretty radically over time, I think. In a down cycle great team-

Jason Averbook:       Yeah, it does vary.

John Sumser:            Great team leadership in a down cycle is different.

Jason Averbook:       Yup. It does, but at the end of the day, even in a down cycle, which is even more important, whether I’m on an upward, you know, run or I’m on a down cycle what I need to be able to do is I need to be able to have a pulse. I as a team leader need to be able to … What makes a great team leader, John, really, I mean at the end of the day, is their ability to respond and act to where their team is. Respond and act to where their team is.

All we’re trying to do, and what we are doing, is we’re providing them visibility as to where their team is, so they’re not calling everyone. They’re able to see on a dashboard, just like if you’re playing a video game. Just like if you’re playing a video game, I want to give team leaders the ability to play with their teams, to understand the chemistry of their team, to understand how their team works together, to be able to understand how their team is feeling, so that when that team is out their performing, they’re going to do the best possible in whatever condition they’re in. In whatever condition they’re in.

John Sumser:            Okay. Love it. Love it. Let’s talk a little bit about engagement, because you are heavily committed to the idea that engagement is a primary indicator of organizational health, but I can’t a find a standard definition of engagement anywhere. How do we reconcile these things? Engagement, which nobody knows what it is, is an indicator of organizational health, that seems unlike a lot of sorts of more crystal measures.

Jason Averbook:       The first thing I want to say is I am not tied to engagement with people’s organizational health.

John Sumser:            Okay.

Jason Averbook:       What I am tied to is engagement is tied to better individual and better team performance. Now if you have better individual and team performance and there’s enough of that, you’re going to have better organizational health, but you can’t just say engagement ties to organizational health. That’s too macro, you actually have to get micro with it and be able to say engagement drives performance and performance drives organizational health. The problem is if I just do an engagement survey, if I just do an engagement survey, which by the way most people that fill out an engagement survey don’t tell the truth, because it’s tied to their job.

They do it once a year, they have no idea who’s going to get the data, but if say the result of an engagement survey drive organizational health, yeah, I’m grasping at two very, very separate straws and good luck if those actually connect. What I am saying and what I do believe, is I do believe that an engaged team drives better team performance. I believe if you have better team performance you have better organizational performance. It’s really important that we don’t miss that team step, because that’s what most engagement surveys do, is ignore what’s happening within these small, little microcosms.

I mean when you’re working one of your great analyst reports and you’re working with various teams, you know you could have the best team out there, but at the end of the day your organization is not performing, because you’ve got seven teams that aren’t. What I need to do is I need to look at those teams in a microcosm, be able to aggregate that, understand where I have great teams and where I don’t have great teams and then apply attention in the areas of education or culture or whatever it is to those teams. That’s what I need to do. It’s not just engagement equals organizational performance. That’s a misnomer that will never prove itself.

John Sumser:            Okay, so let’s look-

Jason Averbook:       And just real quick, we have a lot of CEOs that come into or offices or that I’ve talked to weekly who will say our engagement scores are great, but are organizations are not performing.

John Sumser:            Huh.

Jason Averbook:       That happens a ton, so I just wanted to correct that and make sure that I explained at least where my belief is and where … You know actually there’s a lot of research that shows this. I mean there’s research out there that’s done for profit of companies that do engagement surveys that say, hey, if you have an engaged workforce you’re going to have a better organizational outcome or a better organization.

That’s all cool and it’s very soft, but if you tie it back to individual team ability while they’re playing that game … If you think about it, every single week is a sprint and I’m in fifty-two sprints and I want to be able to see exactly how that team’s doing in one of those sprints, that’s really where I get to the meat of having data to make all of the right decisions.

John Sumser:            Okay, so let’s dig a little bit deeper into the dynamic of your tools. You have a weekly pulse of some kind, how are you doing, are you doing the best … How does the work that actually need to get done get monitored inside of this approach? All right, so-

Jason Averbook:       What I’m doing, John … Go ahead. Go ahead.

John Sumser:            No, you have the question.

Jason Averbook:       What I’m doing is I’m not monitoring the work; I’m monitoring the prioritization and the priorities of people. I mean I’m really monitoring the priorities … This isn’t like here’s my task list, tell me if I’m doing the right task. What I want to do is I want to ask Alex, “Alex, what are your priorities this week and then what do you need my help with?” Think about this, John, I mean, and I’m sure you could think in your head, who’s this best manager you’ve worked for. You’re a bit of an anomaly, because I’m not sure how many managers you’ve worked for. Ever since I’ve know you you’ve been working for yourself.

John Sumser:            Yeah, I had a dozen of the greatest managers who ever lived, I’ve been really blessed. I’ve been real lucky.

Jason Averbook:       When you work for a great manager what do they do? When you work for a great leader what do they do? They’re connected with you. They know how you’re feeling, right? I mean they have a sense as to how you’re feeling. They know what are the things that are your top priorities for the week and they know that they should reach out to you for help if there’s somethings that you need to help them with or that they think you could help them with.

The problem is that when we take this world and make it is as big and remote and matrixed as it is today, all of a sudden it’s really hard for a manager, who has a span of control of contractors, employees, people inside one country, outside the other country, to be able to lead as effective as a bunch of managers or leaders sitting around a table. I mean the way that this ties into work, I mean it’s saying, “Hey, John, what are the things that are your big focuses for this week and then, hey, John, what are the things I can do to help you?” Just by having that information it give me, as a team leader, what I need to have a conversation with you that’s not like, hey, what did you last night or hey, how are you feeling?

I say, “Hey, I see on your check in you said that analyst report was going to be done this week. How did it go?” Now by having conversations like that, and, by the way, John, I see that you needed me to find you three new sponsors for that report, you know, I am able to come to you and move business along in a much more agile way, in these fifty-two sprints, than I am … I mean just imagine how much more deep that conversation is then … Well, I can’t even compare it to a once a year performance review, where all I remember is what someone did for me in the last two weeks.

Think about if I got all that data for fifty-two weeks together, I’ve got all those pulses together, I’ve got all those check ins together and then I say to someone at the end of the year, here’s how you performed, here’s how you’re doing, look at the uptick or look at the down tick, let’s describe what we want to do to get better together. By having all of that systematically and digitally, the power that I have from just the amount of data … If you’re not leading with that kind data you’re at such a severe disadvantage compared to everyone else.

I cannot even begin to tell you that, from the time that I joined TMBC, how my leadership style has changed. The only reason it’s changed is because I now have data, so I can tell you for my team, my team, which is a team of twelve, and I can watch this happen, John, if I cancel me leadership team meeting in a week, the engagement on my team goes down. If I don’t cancel-

John Sumser:            It must great to be able to see that. It must be just fantastic to be able to see that.

Jason Averbook:       John it’s amazing, because what you can do as a leader is you adjust yourself. You say, “Hey, I don’t have time for that meeting.” Well, bull you don’t have time for that meeting, because if you don’t have time for that meeting look what it does. When all of a sudden on Monday morning you come in and you see the pulse of your team way down, you know, excuse my language, but you’re like holy crap, I better do something. Think about having that every week versus once a year. I mean you’re going to a battle with different weapons.

I mean those companies that get to that point, whether they use our tools or whether they use other tools, the more they get to the concept of leveraging data and doing in it away that’s gamified so that I’m actually doing it in a real-time basis and I’m collaborating essentially with my peers and my leaders. I mean the data that you’re going to have and the ability to see the analytic and the metric around how the team’s feeling; it just gives an organization such a competitive advantage.

John, this is four months, this is four or five months old, so are we’re working with these organizations we’re learning every day about how do we … We don’t want to go from … In my book I talk a lot about how do we go from adoption to addiction. We’re not measuring adoption and we’re not measuring addiction, we’re measuring true impact and being able to say people getting things done faster and it’s generating better business results.

That’s the kind of stuff, I hate to say it, but I dreamed of doing at PeopleSoft and I talked about doing at Knowledge Infusion, but I was never able to do. To put a whole wrap around where we started this, like how do I feel, I feel like I’m finally doing what I wanted to do for the last twenty years.

John Sumser:            God your passion is contagious. It’s really, really a delight to hear you talk about this. We’ve blown through our allotted time, because it’s so much fun to listen to you to you go.

Jason Averbook:       Oh, I’m sorry.

John Sumser:            No. No, thank you. Thank you. No, this was amazing. This was amazing. It is an extreme treat to get to hear this level of enthusiasm for your work.

Jason Averbook:       Well, John, hey-

John Sumser:            As we walk away-

Jason Averbook:       Before you close, the other thing that I want to do, and just so you know, a huge mission of mine is to make sure that the success of this is not something that I talk about, but that it’s something that customers talk about. If there’s ever the opportunity to have a customer on your show to talk the impact and you ask them same question … Like if I had my perfect world, a year from now I’m not talking to you about this.

You know I’m not talking to you about the cadence, I’m not talking to you about any of this, we’ve been able to prove it and now it’s become viral and how the world is actually working. There are going to be people … Just like it’s taken a long time for people to move to the cloud and it’s taken a long time for people to think about, hey, should I check someone’s Facebook before I hire them? I mean we all move at different paces, every organization moves at different paces, so this may take a while, but my goal is that eventually, and anytime you want, the customers are telling this story, not me. That’s when I’ll be satisfied.

John Sumser:            Let’s just make that happen. Let’s just make that happen.

Jason Averbook:       Anytime.

John Sumser:            We’ll follow up and I’m interested in stories of amazing customers who happen to be your customers.

Jason Averbook:       Anytime.

John Sumser:            To wrap this, is there anything that you want people in the audience to walk away from here? Two or three sentences to summarize.

Jason Averbook:       It’s going to be real quick, John. It’s that the rest of the world is reimagine business, don’t not reimagine or world of HR.

John Sumser:            That’s great. That’s great. Okay, so Jason why don’t give people a chance to figure out how to get a hold of you. What’s the best way to do that?

Jason Averbook:       Follow me on Twitter, @jasonaverbook, or, I mean, you’re going to laugh at me, but send me a text, (925) 922-2266. That’s my cellphone number. (925) 922-2266. I love, this is me, as you know, I love talking to my wife, but I hate it because I spend so much time texting, but I love talking to people about this. It is my passion and it’s my life’s work, so any questions do that or feel free to visit our website.

John Sumser:            Thanks so much Jason. We’ve been talking with Jason Averbrook, who’s the CEO of The Marcus Buckingham Company and a visionary about how performance management can be replaced with systems that give the organization the ability to more fully engage and control what’s going on. It’s been a pleasure talking with you Jason. Thanks everybody for listening in today. This is the HR Examiner Radio Show. I’m John Sumser and I hope you have an amazing weekend. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.

Jason Averbook:       Thanks, John.

End transcript

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